Schalke Fans Raise Vergina Sun Flag

5B86A81B61CAC293305395B7FC20A128Hot-blooded fans of the German association-football club Schalke 04, raised a flag depicting  the Sun of Vergina and some Greek symbols that Skopjans try to “borrow” in order only to pique the Greek fans of PAOK (Pan-Thessalonian Athletic Club of Constantinopolitans), a Macedonian sports club in Thessaloniki, Greece.

While the match of Schalke 04 with PAOK was on in the Veltins-Arena, PAOK fans were left open-mouthed when they saw a group of Schalke’s fans raising a flag with the Vergina Sun and some symbols in favor of the Skopjans while they were crying out “Macedonia”.

According to the international media, the aim of the German fans was to provoke the Thessalonians.

Immediately the people heading the Greek delegation of the Double-headed eagle of the north, as PAOK is called, talked to the people of UEFA and asked the police to intervene and take the flag down.

The local police entered the grandstand and proceeded to the necessary actions. Policemen used pepper sprays and batons in order to disperse the fans of the German club.

On August 22, Schalke 04 published an announcement in which it tried to respond to the incident with the flag that took place at the grandstand of its fans. In this announcement, the German club stressed that this act had no reason at all to occur and added that the behavior of the PAOK fans was also provocative.


46 COMMENTS

  1. oh dear Greek reporter thats not true, it was fans of Varda team (a skopjan team) that raised that flag.

  2. No Maria Koroglou (with a borrowed Turkish surname). It’s Greece that isn’t Macedonia. Macedonia for the Macedonians you Turkish bearing names.

    It is quite entertaining for the world to watch how easily Greece can get provoked by a flag. LOL

    Imagine when Turkey starts to put up their flags around your islands that will be sold to them?

  3. Wrong. The vast majority of scholars, scientists and archeologists worldwide prove with PEER APPROVED studies and completely side with Greece on the Macedonia issue.
    Skops, who are new to the region, mass murdered the Paionian people hundreds of years ago when they entered Europe and spent most of the 20th century trying to murder Greeks for being actual Macedonians.
    Interesting that a skop wants Greece to worry about Turks while Turkey is largest investor in FYROM now and Albanians the fastest growing ethnic group.

  4. I’m not surprised skops (citizens of FYROM) would behave like this. These people entered Europe hundreds of years ago and exterminated every single Paionian. Then they spent multiple wars in the 20th century trying to exterminate every Greek in Greece’s Macedonia region for being actual Macedonians. These people persecute the minority Albanians by murdering them and banning them from voting. These people persecute Bulgarians for recognizing their Bulgarian heritage instead of being forced to steal Greece’s Macedonian history. They heavily persecute the indigenous Greek minority for being descendants of Ancient Macedonia. And this is a small sampling of their atrocities. It should come as no surprise skopians behave like this.

  5. Please deal in specifics not vague, hysterical claims. You undermine the very paradigm you try and promote by your trivialized assertions of mass murder and quite frankly inaccurate claims.
    For example Who are these ‘Skops’ you talk of, where is your evidence for the mass murder of the Paeonian people? Where did you get the figures showing that Turkey is the largest investor in The Republic Of Macedonia? The only up to date statistics I can find come via ‘ekathimerini’ which states according to The Republic Of Macedonia’s statistical service the total of foreign direct investment in the country last year was 44.2 million euros. Of this, 12.3 million euros came from Greece. Thus making Greece the largest foreign investor in The Republic Of Macedonia.
    What are these ‘multiple wars’ you talk of? What form does this persecution of Greeks and Bulgarians take? You state ‘ this is a small sampling of their atrocities’, this is no sample at all. Your comment is all about twisted, vague notions of what you as individual believe, you haven’t backed up any of your embarrassing claims with a single shred of evidence. You have thus weakened your own argument and by association those you seek to represent.
    You state ‘I’m not surprised skops (citizens of FYROM) would behave like this’ where is your evidence that these fans were from the Republic Of Macedonia? This article only talks in terms of ‘the aim of the German fans’.
    The most fantastic claim you make is ‘These people persecute the minority Albanians by murdering them and banning them from voting.’ If you are to make such outrageous statements on public forums, in my humble opinion you should back them up with firm evidence (let alone no evidence). You have a duty to the overall truth, not lies and propaganda which supports your narrative of prejudice. You kind of comment is borderline incitement to racial hatred, which is ironic when one looks at the original subject matter of the initial story.
    Whilst I would not ban such comment, and would be the first to defend your human right to spout such nonsense, I implore anyone with any sense fairness, objectivity and inquiry to look at the issue around Macedonia identity not just through the discourse of hatred, hysteria and fear as expressed by such posters as 68040.

  6. Hundreds of Scholars back my claims:

    From the Macedonia Evidence Movement:

    The land in question, with its modern capital at Skopje, was called Paionia in antiquity.
    Mts. Barnous and Orbelos (which form today the northern limits of
    Greece) provide a natural barrier that separated, and separates,
    Macedonia from its northern neighbor. The only real connection is
    along the Axios/Vardar River and even this valley “does not form a line of communication because it is divided by gorges.”

    While it is true that the Paionians were subdued by Philip II,
    father of Alexander, in 358 B.C. they were not Macedonians and did not
    live in Macedonia. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians, who were
    subdued by Alexander, may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the
    famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and
    Egypt was never called Macedonia.

    Rather, Macedonia and Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just
    where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same
    relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive
    Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc.

    We do not understand how the modern inhabitants
    of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the
    Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks.

    Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles – the quintessential Greek hero – on their coins.

    Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.

    Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi,
    the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where
    non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly,
    Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games
    at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father
    and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by
    Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C.

    Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.

    Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.

    The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?

    The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later.
    This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as
    Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves
    Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a
    completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?

    The ancient Paionians may or may not have been Greek, but they certainly became Greekish,
    and they were never Slavs. They were also not Macedonians. Ancient
    Paionia was a part of the Macedonian Empire. So were Ionia and Syria
    and Palestine and Egypt and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Bactria and
    many more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but
    none was ever “Macedonia”. The theft of Philip and Alexander by a land
    that was never Macedonia cannot be justified.

    The traditions of ancient Paionia could be
    adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with
    considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term
    “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th
    century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.

    The same motivation is to be seen in school maps
    that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt.
    Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in
    calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes,
    etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it
    declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor
    land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it
    brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?

    /
    There is no dispute among academia about the Greek origins of Macedonians it is a political dispute by skopians who are of Slavic (mostly Bulgarian) ancestry who are trying to usurp Greece’s Macedonian culture. Skopians, citizens of FYROM of Slavic/Bulgarian ancestry, have spent most of the 20th century trying to Murder the indigenous Greek people for the crime of being actual Macedonians. Hundreds of Universities worldwide including SLAVIC ones back these claims with academic PEER approved studies in historic, scientific and archeological fields.

  7. And how does a diatribe about Ancient Macedonia (a brief period of history two thousand years ago) justify and more importantly provide evidence for such claims such as ‘Skopians, citizens of FYROM of Slavic/Bulgarian ancestry, have spent
    most of the 20th century trying to Murder the indigenous Greek people
    for the crime of being actual Macedonians.’?
    Specifics please. Your outlandish claims such as the murder and disenfranchisement of Macedonians of Albanian ethnicity are not best served (along with your whole paradigm) when you refuse to provide any evidence to support them. We could get into a discourse about Macedonia the region, the culture, the identity back through all of history, but I suspect by your previous posts you aren’t open to the ideas of Macedonia and Macedonians being anything other than a long dead people and civilization from over two thousand years ago. I suspect you would dismiss out of hand the history, culture, religion, language, the demographics of Macedonia and Macedonians (of all ethnic groups) during Roman, Byzantium, Ottoman, Communist, or contemporary times.

  8. You seemed to be quite mixed up. Macedonians are the the Greeks who live in Northern Greece who are of Hellenic ( Dorian) descent much like Spartans who live in Lakonia. The Skopians you put in quotes are the people who live in what’s now FYROM who are of slavo-Bulgarian descent these are the so called “Macedonians” who need quotes around their name as their proof of ancestry is quite contested by academia.
    The few remaining Bulgarians who recognize their Bulgarian heritage are heavily prosecuted as the imprisonment of the FYROM historian Vasco shows.
    There is a documentation subsection of the Macedonian Evidence movment which cites numerous historical documents about the origin and timeline of FYROM’s use of Greece’s Macedonia from Bulgarian roots and Tito’s meddling which you clearly want to ignore, and more importantly want the world to ignore. These facts are backed by Hundreds of Scholars worldwide including your fellow Slavs.

    At the end of the day you do like many skops and play the vicitim card while self-conscience Bulgarians are persecuted, Albanians are shot dead and Greek people persecuted for being actual Macedonians.

  9. ‘self-conscience Bulgarians are persecuted, Albanians are shot dead and Greek people persecuted for being actual Macedonians.’
    Specifics please. Still no evidence, constant lack of substance to your argument, therefore rendering your paradigm very weak, if not pointless.

    ‘your fellow Slavs.’
    I am not Slav, I’m from the UK, I am British. If I was to define my identity via your paradigm then I would have to draw a direct undiluted link back to mud hut dwelling, primitive people of ancient Britain such as the beaker people. Because I don’t speak the tongue of ancient Britain, share their culture or ethnicity does this mean I can not call myself British? Please let me know. How would you define my Britishness?

    ‘You seemed to be quite mixed up.’

    No confusion on my part. I suppose it all depends on whether you adopt a conservative somewhat regressive position and define a state, region, people, and culture by a brief period of history from over two thousand years ago. Personally I think one should have a far more objective, unblinkered, progressive view of modern European demographics, politics, issues of identity, and the base human right of self determination.

    The Republic Of Macedonia, like The Hellenic Republic and the rest of the world has been subject to the ebb and flow of history. There are no ancient Macedonians living today, there are no ancient Greeks or Britons. There is however thousands of years of history, culture, geography and religion which have led to define what it means to be
    Macedonian in today’s world no matter what region, state, or ethnic group you belong to. To monopolize a term, name, or entire history of a region (no matter what state you are from) is to ignore the basic virtues of identity and ethnicity. To dismiss out of hand the complexities around thousands of years of struggle and issue is to render your argument redundant.

  10. Please enlighten greekreporter.com, myself and others who are reporting
    this story as to how you know these fans were Macedonian. Having looked
    at the video evidence and heard the crowd chanting did you recognize the Macedonian accent? Or did you recognize the fans being hit and pepper sprayed in person? I’m genuinely interested how you know for a fact that these were ‘Varda team’ what ever that is, maybe you mean FK Vardar, a team from Skopje, The Republic Of Macedonia.

  11. Still haven’t bothered to read any posts I made. I gave the example of Vasko Gligorijevic and you still ignore it. I give you links to documents that show timelines of FYROM’s theft of Greece’s Macedonian identity and you still ignore. You can go to many Albanians sites if you want to know what Albanians think of the skopians. They’ll know who you’re talking about if you use the word skopian. I’m happy you’re a Brit now since many British historians and scholars side with Greece’s position that Macedonia is Greek. Take a stroll to Oxford and take some classes. For a Brit you seem to be awfully interesting in posts regarding FYROM and Albanians in FYROM. FYROM doesn’t extend its school maps to include parts of Britain as part of their territory nor do they usurp British culture and history so your ethnic comparison is not relevant.

    But what is relevant is that HUNDREDS of scholars in multiple fields including History, Science and Archeology from all four coroners of the planet side with Greece on the Macedonia issue. They back their claims with PEER approved studies. Peer approved studies are not youtube videos, skopian state TV, paid off politicians and what internet posters write.

  12. I wasn’t ignoring your reference to ‘FYROM historian Vasco’ I just wasn’t sure of who you were referring to. Now that you have given his full name I can at last address some specific evidence you use to justify your point of view. Rather than look to ‘youtube videos, skopian state TV, paid off politicians and what internet posters write.’ I thought anyone with a lack of bias and objectivity might like a more reliable source. I’d like to draw you to the written question asked by Athanasios Plevris (EFD) 7th September 2009 in The European Parliament:

    Subject: Violation of human rights of the archaeologist Vasko Gligorijevic
    The historian and archaeologist Vasko Gligorijevic has twice been arrested — in January 2009 and July 2009 — by the Skopje (FYROM) Government which has also illegally detained him without charge in a
    psychiatric clinic.
    Mr Gligorijevic is being persecuted by the Skopje Government and is living in fear of his life because of his scientific research.He is being forced to interrupt his academic activities and is constantly receiving death threats. The reason for this persecution is that Mr Gligorijevic is conducting scientific research leading in a
    direction contrary to the propaganda about ‘Macedonian’ identity being propagated by the official government in Skopje: the thrust of his research findings is there is no connection between the Skopje State and the term ‘Macedonia’ and its historical dimension.
    In view of the above, will the Commission say:
    1. Is it aware of the persecution of Vasko Gligorijevic by the Skopje government? If so, what are its views on this matter?
    2. Does it know whether the imprisonment of Mr Gligorijevic is in breach of international law on the protection of the person and scientific research and Articles 3, 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which refer to the protection of liberty, security of the person and freedom of opinion and expression?
    3. Does it intend to take measures to protect the human rights of Vasko Gligorijevic and any other citizens who express divergent views on the question of the historicity and the name of Macedonia and are being subjected to persecution by the Skopje Government?

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2009-4224+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=mt

    This is a shocking set of claims to make, and if true would go in part to support your paradigm and statements of persecution. However in addressing this issue, and the evidence you provide I don’t want to quote websites where Vasko Gligorijevic’s mother explains that her son was mentally ill, or point out that Mr. Gligorijevic a member of the Hellenic Electronic Center (an organization ‘whose main objective is to promote Hellenic culture’) has (as far as I can tell) been rather quiet recently not posting on his usual Greek blogs for a few years. Instead I’ll post the European commission’s official answer to the above question asked by Athanasios Plevris:

    20 October 2009
    Answer given by Mr Rehn on behalf of the Commission
    The Commission replied in March 2009 to Written Question E‑0835/09(1) by Mr Schinas on this case. The Commission has again reviewed the situation through contacts with the local authorities, including the Ombudsman, and civil society organisations. On this basis, it can confirm that it has found no evidence that Mr Gligorijevic is being persecuted because of his opinions or academic activities.
    Mr Gligorijevic has not been arrested. Rather, he has been committed to the psychiatric hospital of Bardovci on several occasions over a long period of time, sometimes with his consent and at times without his consent. Mr Gligorijevic has not filed any complaint about illegal
    commitment.
    There is an ongoing general discussion with the authorities on the application of the Law on Extrajudicial Proceedings as regards the committal of patients to psychiatric hospitals without their consent. In this context, the Commission is seeking guarantees that the legal
    framework adequately ensures the rights of the patients.

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=E-2009-4224&language=MT

    I would also like to demonstrate the weakness of Mr Gligorijevic himself as a source. He has in his own words contradicted himself (some might say lied): on the history-of-macedonia.com website in an interview he states :
    ‘The Slavic Philhellenic Network, now banned, was a small group of students began to turn to activism,’.
    And yet on the actual website of The Slavic Philhellenic Network he himself states:
    ‘The decision to disband the SPN, the Skopje-based organization established as an informal body of students in November 2008 to counteract anti-Greek propaganda, Slavophobia and Fascist ideology of what Gruevism
    reached today at a working meeting of the four committee members. This decision based on what mutual convergence of attitudes Regarding the organization’s specific mission in place and time. It was Agreed did the organization Fulfilled its mission against anti-Hellenism and Anti-Slavism produced by the current regime in
    Skopje. ‘
    Please let me know, which is it? Mission accomplished or outlawed organisation?

    Mr. Gligorijevic; Serb on his father’s side, Greek on his mother’s (his self determined identity according to the history-of-macedonia.com website interview) is not someone whose story or integrity I would use to countenance my cause or sentiment.

    In regards to the links you have provided i can’t see them please re post them so I can have a look at that testimony as well. Or do you mean your copy and paste from macedonia-evidence.org? This website and the scholars associated with it deals with a brief period of history two thousand years ago. I don’t think one should limit themselves in regards to important issues such as identity, I think one should look at the history of Macedonia, a region, state, people, and culture as a whole. I am always very intrigued by this maps and school book argument that always comes up in regards to the discourse surrounding this issue. Please take the time and find me reference to these books, I would love to have an independent reliable source to finally demonstrate the validity of said argument. There is, like much evidence presented in this issue a lot of hysteria and vague dispute when it comes to the school maps question.
    I’m very glad you accept I am British, many who disagree with my point of view on forums such as this dismiss me out of hand, and feel somewhat uncomfortable at the fact that I find fault with their limited, regressive attitude towards a modern European democracy. I would like to repeat my request in regards to how you would define my Britishness. Obviously you don’t know my gender, race, age, and heritage; but due to your definite ideas on what makes a Macedonian, Macedonian, I’m sure you’ll be able to determine what makes me a Briton (or not). Is there a set of rules, a check list? Or is it my human right to self determination that is paramount?

  13. Macedonia Evidence address more than 2000 years ago but recent history. That’s yet another time you want to ignore the recent 20th century events relevant to the skops theft of Greece’s Macedonia culture including Tito’s meddling and Bulgarian links. Considering Skopje builds statues of Phillip and Alexander they seem to have a special affinity for that time period in addition to Mother Theresa, an Albanian.

    You asked for proof nothing beats academically backed peer approval from multiple universities from multiple races.
    Trying to draw parallels of Brits to FYROM’s theft of Greece’s Macedonia region is ridiculous since they’re not actively stealing anyone’s culture and identity like the skopians are stealing the identity of Northern Greeks who are Macedonians. Not only that but it is insulting to Brits as they have great accomplishments like Spain, Italy, Greece do but FYROM does not.
    Did you walk over to Oxford and go to their archeology department? They can trace the true Greek history and lineage of Macedon as they have done in the past. Oxford professors have made some strong statements in support of Greece. Maybe you could ask for Brit history there while you’re at it. Truth is their paradigm.

  14. I know that these fans were Skopjans because i saw the German police anouncement through Greek media.
    Now, if German police or Greek media lied, thats another case

  15. My point wasn’t to enter into a protracted debate over the ancient history of the Macedonian region. As I have stated before; we could get into a discourse about Macedonia the region, the culture,
    the identity back through all of history, but I suspect by your previous
    posts you aren’t open to the ideas of Macedonia and Macedonians being
    anything other than a long dead people and civilization from over two
    thousand years ago. I suspect you would dismiss out of hand the history,
    culture, religion, language, the demographics of Macedonia and
    Macedonians (of all ethnic groups) during Roman, Byzantium, Ottoman,
    Communist, or contemporary times.

    I have however requested you show evidence in support of your previous claims, claims such as:

    ‘These people persecute the minority Albanians by murdering them and banning them from voting.’

    ‘Skopians, citizens of FYROM of Slavic/Bulgarian ancestry, have spent most of the 20th century trying to Murder the indigenous Greek people for the crime of being actual Macedonians.’

    ‘self-conscience Bulgarians are persecuted, Albanians are shot dead and Greek people persecuted for being actual Macedonians.’

    The burden of proof lies with yourself, if you make such wild claims on a public forum you must be able to back up said statements with evidence, otherwise it renders your whole argument very weak indeed.
    I am also still waiting for you to define the parameters of what it means to be British, you have such a strong notion of identity I am very interested to see if I fit into your very blinkered ideal. Any joy in finding reference to your source as to the school map issue? I really would love to address this point, but without any evidence or source to back it up the claim and hysteria surrounding it is pure hear say.

    I’m not sure about your attitude towards the statue/celebration of Mother Teresa in Skopje, The Republic Of Macedonia, you haven’t made your opinion clear. I assume you know she was born in said city?

  16. Please if you have the time could you post a link to said announcement so I and anyone else who appreciates evidence and original source can make up their own mind. In my humble opinion if you make claims such as these on web forums I think one should show where the evidence came from, and how you formed your claims. Many thanks for your time.

  17. Wrong. The onus of proof is on the Identity thief to prove their identity. That is the case of FYROM. Identity theft.
    The Northern Greeks have been continuously calling themselves Macedonians since ancient times and have lived in Macedonia continuously. The academic community has come forward to back these claims that Greeks are Macedonians.
    I gave you an example of a historian persecuted and you didn’t accept it. I gave you a pile of documents, which were backed by hundreds of universities stating Tito’s meddling and Bulgarian history of the issues and you didn’t accept it. The same document subsections show the school maps you still ignore and regurgitate the tired old skop lines. I didn’t even bring up other topics the evidence movement brings up like the Bulgarian language of FYROM. What did Albanians say about Skops? You’ve posted in another forum about Albanians in FYROM? Theresa an Albanian born in FYROM means FYROM is occupied Albanian lands to the Albanians. Why do you put quotes around conscience Bulgarians. Tens of thousands of FYROM citizens apply for passports from Bulgaria regularly. You need to prove yourself when applying for passports and a large amount proof themselves Bulgarian. That’s disgusting you don’t want Bulgarians to recognize themselves and be forced to STEAL Greece’s Macedonian Identity while they are being told to do so in Bulgarian dialect.
    What did the Oxford people tell you when you went to ask?
    Which research does Sweden’s Lund university do that you oppose?
    What did you dispute with the Polish Academy of Sciences?
    What did the prestigious Stanford University in the Bay Area of the United States publish that you oppose?
    What did Universität Passau do that makes you reject their research?
    What did the Mission au Département des Antiquités Grecques, Etrusques et Romaines du Musée du Louvre, a prestigious institution , make you doubt the Indigenous Greek origins of Macedonia?

  18. ok ok so there are Skopjans who claim that Macedonia is NOT Greek, so here we go again:

    The
    inhabitants of this area (Macedonians) were one of the most ancient
    Greek
    tribes. Their closest relatives were the Thessalians and particularly
    the
    Magnesians, with whom they shared Aeolian ancestry. The language they
    spoke was
    among the oldest forms of Greek, and it had affinities with the
    Aeolian,
    Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenean dialects. The religion of the
    Madeconians
    was that of the other Greeks, and their myths and traditions
    were those
    found throughout the Greek world.

    Alexander’s
    name is Greek. The word “Alexandros” is produced from the prefix
    alex(=protector)
    and the word andros(=man) meaning “he who protects men”.
    The
    prefix
    “alex” can be found in many Greek words today (alexiptoto=parachute,
    alexisfairo=bulletproof
    – all these words have the meaning of protection).

    Philip’s
    name is also Greek. It is produced from the prefix Philo(=friendly
    tosomething)
    and the word ippos(=horse) meaning the man who is friendly tohorses.

    The prefix
    “philo” and the word “ippos” are also found in many wordsof
    Greek origin
    today (philosophy,philology, hippodrome,hippocampus).

    About their
    language, The volume of the surviving public and private inscriptions indicate
    that there was no other written language in ancient Macedonia but Greek,and
    recent epigraphic discoveries (like the
    Pella curse tablet) suggest that ancient Macedonian was a variety of the
    Northwestern Greek dialects.

    Apart from
    the fact that The regions of ancient Macedonia had Greek names, and apart from
    the fact that Macedonians worshipped the same gods as the rest of the Greeks,
    and apart from the fact that Macedonians celebrated the same festivals as the
    rest of the Greeks, (like “Hetaireidia” and the
    “Apellaia”), Macedonians could take part at Olympic games that was
    ONLY for Greeks, and was a member of the Delphic Amfictiony an institution
    which was open ONLY to Greeks too.

    But lets
    follow Historian Hammond’s opinion about the origins of ancient Macedonians:

    [i]”The
    name of the ancient Macedonians is derived from Macedon, who was the
    grand-child of Deukalion, the father of all Greeks.This we may infer from
    Hesiod’s geneal-ogy. It may be proven that Macedonians spoke Greek since
    Macedon, the ancestor of Macedonians, was a brother of Magnes, the ancestor
    of
    Thessalians, who spoke Greek.[/i]

    Lets also
    check out another historian opinion, Professor W J Woodhouse

    [[i]i]”This
    was Macedonia in the strict sense, the land where settled immigrands of Greek
    stock later
    to be called Macedonians”[/i]

    Lets check
    ancient Herodotus opinion: (Perdiccas was a member of Alexander’s great
    generals)

    [i]Now that
    the men of this family are Hellenes, sprung from Perdiccas, as they them-selves
    affirmis a thing which I can declare on my own knowledge, and which I will
    hereafter make plainly evident. That they are so has been already adjudged by
    those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia”[/i]

    [i]

    “Now
    that these descendants of Perdiccas [u]are Hellenes, as they themselves
    say[/u], I myself chance to know[/i]

    What about
    Plutarchos:

    [i]”But
    he said, `If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes’; that is to say: `If
    it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic, to
    traverse and
    civilize every every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of
    land and sea,to push the
    boiunds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean,and to
    diseminate and shower the
    blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace
    over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle
    power, but I should emulate the
    frugality of
    Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and
    emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and
    pro-genitor of my family, and desire
    that victorius Hellenes should dance again in
    India and revive
    the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes be-yond the
    Kaukasos…’ “[/i]

    Plutarchos
    again:

    [i]Yet
    through Alexander, Bactria and the Caucasus learned to revere the gods of the
    Hellenes

    Alexander
    established more than seventy cities among savage tribes, and

    sowed all
    Asia with Hellenic magistracies

    … Egypt
    would not have its Alexandria, nor

    Mesopotamia
    its Seleucia, nor Sogdiana its Prophthasia, nor India its Bucephalia,

    nor

    the
    Caucasus a Hellenic city,

    for by the founding of cities in these places
    savagery was

    extinguished
    and the worse element, gaining familiarity with the better, changed un-der its
    influence.'[/i]

    Isokratis

    “It is
    your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to
    consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race.”

    Pausanias

    “They
    say that these were the tribes
    collected
    by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic
    Assembly:
    … the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race …
    In my day
    there were thirty
    members: six each from Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly …

    Now about modern historians:

    It was May
    18, 2009 (or somewhere there) when Barrack Obama received a letter from more
    than 300!!! historians of ancient antiquity. It was an open letter, trying to
    adress the Macedonian issue, and prove why ancient Macedonians were greeks. You
    can read the open letter, and all the historians who signed it, here
    http://www.panmacedonian.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=258:open-letter-to-president-obama-from-world-scholars-about-macedonia&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=50

    On the
    following site i provide the opinions of about 129 historians about ancient
    Macedonia http://history-of-macedonia.com/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/

    The site
    contain opinions of great historians like:

    N.G.L
    Hammond

    Richard Stoneman

    William
    Pinnock

    Donald P.
    Ryan

    A. B.
    Bossworth

    John
    Mounteney

    John Warry

    M. T.
    Kerrigan

    Read more
    http://history-of-macedonia.com/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/

    I will
    close this subject with Great Alexander speech about the world one year before
    his death:

    I wish all
    of you, now that the wars are coming to an end, to live happily in peace. All
    mortals from now on shall live like one people, united, and peacefully working
    towardsa common prosperity. You should regard the whole world as your country,a
    country where the best govern, with common laws, and no racial distinctions.

    I do not
    separate people, as many narrow-minded others do, into Hellenes and barbarians.
    I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens;I only distinguish them
    on the basis oftheir virtue.For me, each foreigner is a Hellene, and each bad
    Hellene is a barbarian.

    If ever
    there appear differences among you, you must not resolve them

    by taking
    to

    arms; you
    should resolve them in peace. If need be, I shall act as your negotiator.

    [/i]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians

    http://parisis.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/macedonia.pdf

    http://macedonia-issue.blogspot.gr/2008/04/there-is-no-doupt-that-ancient.html

    http://historyofmacedonia.wordpress.com/2006/12/29/modern-historians-about-macedonia-richard-stoneman/

    http://history-of-macedonia.com/2007/08/21/80-modern-historians-about-the-greekness-of-ancient-macedonia/

  19. Nice links. They include lots of researchers and cite their works. The sublinks are great for showing FYROM’s antics.

  20. I noticed he used Nicholas Geoffrey Lempriere Hammond as a source, here’s another quote from this historian (with a full reference):

    ‘The
    Macedonians in general did not consider themselves Greeks, nor were
    they considered Greeks by their neighbours’ (N.G.L. Hammond A History Of
    Greece To 322 BC, 2nd edition, Claredon Press, Oxford, 1967, page 535)

    This Macedonian issue is a lot more complicated than just a few selective quotes, about a long dead civilization from over two thousand years ago.

  21. Any chance of that link? Where was it you saw ‘the German police anouncement through Greek media.’? Maybe I could chase it up myself, I’d hate to talk on an issue without being objective and having as much information as possible.

  22. Who is talking of Identity? I haven’t asked anyone to prove their identity, I wouldn’t be so arrogant and regressive to define and deny anothers base human right to self determination. I certainly don’t think a brief period of history two thousand years ago, a history of a people who we don’t even know exactly what language they spoke is enough to monopolize a term and name thus denying an entire modern democratic nation its rightful place in the world. What do you think happened after The Antigonid Dynasty? You might like to know (or not as it doesn’t fit your narrow historical narrative) that its thought Perseus Of Macedon the last of this dynasty used Styberra (situated near Prilep, The Republic Of Macedonia) as one of his base of operation (see – A History of Macedonia: 336-167 B.C By Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond page 523)
    For the record I’ll repeat: There are no ancient Macedonians living today, there are no ancient
    Greeks or Britons. There is however thousands of years of history, culture, geography and religion which have led to define what it means to be Macedonian in today’s world no matter what region, state, or ethnic group you belong to. To monopolize a term, name, or entire history of a region (no matter what state you are from) is to ignore the basic virtues of identity and ethnicity. To dismiss out of hand the
    complexities around thousands of years of struggle and issue is to render your argument redundant.
    I have continually asked you is to provide evidence to back up your previous outrageous claims. Evidence please, evidence please, evidence please. I find it hard to even to begin to look at other aspects of your discourse when you still haven’t dealt with your previous statements. And I quote:

    ‘These people persecute the minority Albanians by murdering them and banning them from voting.’

    ‘Skopians, citizens of FYROM of Slavic/Bulgarian ancestry, have spent most of the 20th century trying to Murder the indigenous Greek people for the crime of being actual Macedonians.’

    ‘self-conscience Bulgarians are persecuted, Albanians are shot dead and Greek people persecuted for being actual Macedonians.’

    evidence please…

    I haven’t entered into any discourse with yourself about the history of ancient Macedonia and the long dead civilization which once occupied that region. I have however repeatedly asked you how you would define my Britishness, your very definite ideas on ethnicity should make this very easy for you. You seem happy to tell one nation and ethnic group how they should be defined, why not mine? Definition please, definition please, definition please.

    I haven’t asked you how you would define those that come from areas of The Republic Of Macedonia that once fell within the ancient region of Macedonia. I’m quite really interested in how you might view people that come from Bitola (Heraclea Lyncestis), Prilep (Styberra) or indeed the Western shoreline of Lake Dorjan. However I suppose you have made it very clear in your regressive, strict view of identity, Macedonian history, culture, and demographics stopped over two thousand years ago. You are not interested in the following Roman, Byzantium, Ottoman, or contemporary history.

    You have explained your bizarre opinion that (unlike the rest of the world) the modern Hellenic Republic of Greece is immune to all aspects of history and demographics such as immigration, annexation, and assimilation. So much so that you are under the impression that the ancient Greeks and modern Greeks are one and the same. If I pointed out that the Roman province of Macedonia took in most of present day Macedonia or the fact that the first (very short lived) Macedonia Republic existed a decade before any part of Macedonia was part of The Hellenic Republic you would probably dismiss these historical facts. Namely because it does not fit into your ridiculous notion of a perceived undiluted link between Ancient Macedonians and those living in the region of Greece that was once part of the ancient kingdom of Macedon but not the part that is found in The Republic Of Macedonia.
    Your reactionary attitude is one that will never be changed. This backward view of the modern world and the very arrogant attitude that deems it acceptable to deny an entire nation and people its right to self determination is what leads to increased security issues in the Balkans, ICJ judgements against Greece, and yes Macedonians seeking Bulgarian passports just so they can enjoy the benefits of The European Union that have been denied them by their southern neighbour.
    You can bang on about academia, about numerous scholars who demonstrate the undeniable link between the ancient kingdom of Macedon and the city states of Ancient Greece. I don’t suppose you would except any source that goes against your paradigm though; for example I’m sure you would choose to ignore historians such as Victor Davis Hanson, Eugene Borza, and selective NGL Hammond quotes or indeed more recent controversy over statues in Athens http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/feb/16/statue-alexander-great-greece .
    But then again all this dialogue is possibly pointless. I’m trying to carry out a discourse with someone who seemingly still believes in the persecution of Vasko Gligorijevic, a historian who not only contradicts himself, but has been shown through an official European Commission release (not some hysterical nationalistic website) that his detention was due to mental health and no other reason. Here is the link just in case you missed it http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=E-2009-4224&language=MT .
    I really wouldn’t use this case to reinforce a series of dubious claims. There really is nothing useful in engaging with someone who would rather
    copy and paste from a non objective website rather than accept a neutral source. If you are unwilling to accept the European Commission’s findings on this issue then perhaps there is no point in continuing this debate. If you are unwilling to provide evidence of the claims you have previously made then perhaps there is no point in continuing this debate. If you are only going to talk about the history of the Macedonian region in such a limited manner then perhaps there is no point in continuing this debate. I mean after all anyone who states ‘Theresa an Albanian born in FYROM means FYROM is occupied Albanian lands to the Albanians.’ clearly doesn’t understand, or worse chooses to ignore the complexities and subtleties of modern European politics and ethnic relations. I wish you good luck in a modern, forward thinking, progressive, democratic world, I think you might need it.

  23. Typical skopian tactic taking a quote of context.
    His quotes also say Macedonians were Greek too. Many texts speak of Bavarians as distinguished from Germans and Cantonese from Chinese but they are still German and Chinese respectively.

    Philip was born a Greek of the most aristocratic, indeed of divine, descent… Philip was both a Greek and a Macedonian, even as Demosthenes was a Greek and an Athenian…The Macedonians over whom Philip was to rule were an outlying family member of the Greek-speaking peoples.

    Nicholas G. L. Hammond, ‘Philip of Macedon’ Duckworth Publishing, February 1998
    Macedonians still exist today in Northern Greece and many diaspora Greeks are Macedonians.
    Its only a complicated issue for skopians who can’t grasp the fact that Macedonians are Greek. They were trained to believe they are not slavic/Bulgarian even though all of academia can prove otherwise. This is more than Greece this is a war skops have with Academia.

  24. Wrong Again:
    Notice now how you resort to quoting people out of context and posting non academically peer approved articles.
    At least the posts the Greeks post here have academic backing by hundreds of universities worldwide. You keep trying to draw comparisons with other countries but other countries don’t try to steal other countries identities and cultures like the skops of FYROM do with Greece’s Macedonia.
    You truly have some issues to go through with yourself as you keep ignoring the evidence. Do you even know what evidence is? Did you go to Oxford and ask about archeology? No! There is nothing wrong with quoting academically backed peer approved sources with that completely outnumber the disingenuous posts you make trying to draw conclusions not based in reality. Your war with Academia can only go so far. Even some FYROM people have conceded many of their lies.
    Look what skopian tv shows now:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S48MY60Lg60
    Looks like many skops are jumping ship trying to not look so laughable to the academic community.

  25. You have failed to grasp my point. I repeat; This Macedonian issue is a lot more complicated than just a few selective quotes, about a long dead civilization from over two thousand years ago. I used the quote
    from NGL Hammond to demonstrate the redundant nature of just posting links to pro Hellenic websites and highly edited quotes.
    Just as a slight aside, for clarity (and possibly to demonstrate the weakness of using a few selective quotes); in using the whole of this quote as evidence I understand your view that Philip II was Greek. Do
    you therefore agree with the rest of the quote and concur with the antique idea that Philip II of Macedon was ‘of divine descent’?
    You refer to a ‘Typical skopian’ are you now of the thinking that I come from the city of Skopje, capital of The Republic Of Macedonia? I thought you were decided on my nationality, and I quote ‘I’m happy you’re a Brit’. I
    must point out however, I’m still waiting for your decision over how you’d define my Britishness. I suppose one can’t expect anything better in response, I still haven’t received any evidence in support to previous claims.
    We could trade quotes about ancient Macedonia (where ever taken from) ad infinitum, you would still not justify your denial of base human rights, your outrageous claims, your exceedingly limited view of the history of the Macedonian region and your quite frankly weird paradigm around the undiluted heritage of modern Greece. In return I would not be able to change the intransigent nature, limited scope and regressive aspects of your ideals; you are just not open to the idea that the history, culture, demographics of Macedonia and the Macedonian people (from whatever modern area) is something that didn’t die with the Antigonid Dynasty. Selective quotes about the debated nature of an ancient, extinct kingdom do in no way negate the fact that there is a modern state called The Republic Of Macedonia, in which peoples of all ethnic
    groups, religions and cultures strive to overcome the barriers which preclude them from becoming part of a modern, free, and democratic
    continent.

  26. Where have I quoted people out of context? Enlighten me and I will retract the quote. You claim that I ‘keep ignoring the evidence’ and yet in regards to the issues I am concerned with you have not provided any. I’ll post your claims again just to make it clear what I think you need to address in terms of evidence and support for your statements:

    ‘These people persecute the minority Albanians by murdering them and banning them from voting.’

    ‘Skopians, citizens of FYROM of Slavic/Bulgarian ancestry, have spent
    most of the 20th century trying to Murder the indigenous Greek people
    for the crime of being actual Macedonians.’

    ‘self-conscience Bulgarians are persecuted, Albanians are shot dead and Greek people persecuted for being actual Macedonians.’

    How can I ‘keep ignoring the evidence’ when you haven’t posted any? Evidence please, evidence please, evidence please.

    Or perhaps you are referring to the copy and paste job you’ve done in regards to the identity of a long dead despot and self proclaimed god?
    Please don’t get confused; at no point have I argued that any Ancient person belongs to any modern state, quite the opposite, I repeat: There are no ancient Macedonians living today, there are no ancient Greeks or Britons. There is however thousands of years of history, culture, geography and religion which have led to define what it means to be Macedonian in today’s world no matter what region, state, or ethnic group you belong to. To monopolize a term, name, or entire history of a region (no matter what state you are from) is to ignore the basic virtues of identity and ethnicity. To dismiss out of hand the complexities around thousands of years of struggle and issue is to render your argument redundant.
    I’m still very much interested in how you would determine my Britishness. You have such strong views on identity, I would love for you to apply your logic and rules to myself.

    Finally in your previous posts you have quite rightly extolled the virtues of Academic research, of the work of historians and academics. You state:

    ‘They back their claims with PEER approved studies. Peer approved studies are not youtube videos,’.

    Agreed, although I could find you another peer group that might disagree (and before you claim otherwise I’m not agreeing with any side over the historical identity of a dead civilization from over two thousand years ago).
    I very much agree with your stance on youtube videos, their reliability and lack of strength as source. That is why I am quite surprised you have actually used one in your previous post, quite a contradiction, quite a contradiction. I thought you liked it when claims were backed by ‘PEER approved studies’ not youtube videos. Especially youtube videos posted by users with a name like ‘HellenicFighter’ whose channel opens with a video of the flag of the Hellenic Republic and national anthem, not a very neutral source at all. If I were you and in regards to your discourse over this undiluted identity claim, I certainly would not lend any weight to, and use a study as evidence of genetics based in the Balkans in which ‘the Greeks did not accept the invitation to participate in the project’, HellenicFighter’s words. One might ask the question; why did Greece not want to participate? You talk of conceding lies, some might talk of hidden truths.
    After all is said and done and in your words: ‘Peer approved studies are not youtube videos,’.

  27. Talking of ‘valuable time’ did you get a chance to find any reference to that ‘German police anouncement through Greek media.’ ? I really would like to have a look at that report if possible. I really am uncomfortable talking about this incident when I don’t have all the facts.

  28. Yeah. Always pretending to be other nationalities, taking info out of context from even their OWN sources while skops ignore the majority of the research by the prestigious universities.

  29. The land in question, with its modern capital at Skopje, was called Paionia in antiquity.
    Mts. Barnous and Orbelos (which form today the northern limits of
    Greece) provide a natural barrier that separated, and separates,
    Macedonia from its northern neighbor. The only real connection is
    along the Axios/Vardar River and even this valley “does not form a line of communication because it is divided by gorges.”

    While it is true that the Paionians were subdued by Philip II,
    father of Alexander, in 358 B.C. they were not Macedonians and did not
    live in Macedonia. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians, who were
    subdued by Alexander, may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the
    famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and
    Egypt was never called Macedonia.

    Rather, Macedonia and Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just
    where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same
    relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive
    Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc.

    We do not understand how the modern inhabitants
    of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the
    Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks.

    Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles – the quintessential Greek hero – on their coins.

    Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.

    Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi,
    the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where
    non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly,
    Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games
    at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father
    and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by
    Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C.

    Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.

    Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.

    The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?

    The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later.
    This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as
    Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves
    Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a
    completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?

    The ancient Paionians may or may not have been Greek, but they certainly became Greekish,
    and they were never Slavs. They were also not Macedonians. Ancient
    Paionia was a part of the Macedonian Empire. So were Ionia and Syria
    and Palestine and Egypt and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Bactria and
    many more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but
    none was ever “Macedonia”. The theft of Philip and Alexander by a land
    that was never Macedonia cannot be justified.

    The traditions of ancient Paionia could be
    adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with
    considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term
    “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th
    century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.

    The same motivation is to be seen in school maps
    that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt.
    Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in
    calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes,
    etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it
    declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor
    land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it
    brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?

    However one might like to characterize such behavior,
    it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability
    in the Balkans. It is sad that the United States of America has
    abetted and encouraged such behavior.

    We call upon you, Mr. President, to help – in
    whatever ways you deem appropriate – the government in Skopje to
    understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of
    historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when
    history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.

    Backed by HUNDREDS of Universities worldwide.

  30. 68040, what is it that has changed your mind? Only 48 hours ago you were content with my nationality, and I quote ‘ I’m happy you’re a Brit now’. Is it really beyond the realms of possibility that someone not Greek or Macedonian would express interest in the Geo political situation in the Balkans. Does it really surprise you that they might find fault with the hysterical, fear mongering attitude as displayed in your posts about the situation that exists in The Republic Of Macedonia? You still haven’t provided any evidence, you still haven’t convinced me of your strange paradigm. I am just the person you should be convincing. I am fully prepared to believe your assertions of such state sanctioned behavior in Macedonia, if only you would provide some evidence, and I don’t mean weak links to nationalistic websites and youtube accounts. I am sorry for repeating myself but where have I quoted people out of context? Enlighten me and I will retract the quote.

  31. You seem to have covered Ancient Macedonia, what about the regions history for the next two thousand years?

  32. Yes, they’ll have statues too like the Albanian Mother Theresa and Greeks from antiquity. Many skops will deny or twist facts as to their background despite the overwhelming proof like the vast majority of scholars of Macedonia from universities worldwide and especially prestigious ones like Oxford scholar Robert Lane Fox from Britain.

  33. Please elaborate on this statement. There has without doubt been figures such as Tsar Samuel Of Bulgaria who have along with the First Bulgarian Empire been an important part of the history of the region of Macedonia. His statue sits in the city square, Skopje, The Republic Of Macedonia. Why shouldn’t the Macedonian authorities put up a statue honoring this important historical figure. If you have seen the statue it even states on it ‘Tsar Samuel Of Bulgaria’ how is this denying this figures origins? If I was trying to claim an individual as my own I certainly wouldn’t put in large letters the place from which I was supposedly stealing said figure. Your claims once again do not add up.

  34. Still no source for that ‘German police anouncement’? Maybe you could let me know what media outlet you saw it on, then I could contact them myself. I work in the media and quite often have to acquire stock footage, so its something I’m used to.

  35. yep unfortunately they are problematic, and unfortunately the rest of the world is being convinced by their false claims, no matter how strong the scientists oppose them.

    Thats bad and i guess we cant change that.

    Now as about Macedonia and Macedonians, i have been there. They have nice cities like Thessaloniki (it can be reffered as their capital) and chalkidike is so popular ;P

  36. I wonder have you been to Bitola (Heraclea Lyncestis), Prilep (Styberra) or Ohrid (Lychnidos)? All are Ancient Macedonian sites of which I am sure you aware. The only thing is you might feel a little uncomfortable visiting them as they are all to be found within the borders of The Republic Of Macedonia.

  37. No. These places are not Greek anymore, as Slavs live there.
    But i might visit Vergina, the ancient capital of Macedonians, which is in the perfecture of Imathia in Greece, and Pella, the second capital of ancient Macedonians, and where Great Alexander was born.

  38. I’m not sure how to respond to such a sheltered, stubborn view of the world. What a very strange and ignorant way of looking at history. So your interest in Ancient Macedonian history and historical sites only extends to those places where you perceive some sort of undiluted link to the extinct civilization of Macedon, namely those areas of Ancient Macedonia that lie within the borders of The Hellenic Republic.
    Presumably by your twisted logic if you were alive prior to 1913 when none of the region of Ancient Macedonia was part of Greece you wouldn’t have been interested in any Macedonian history, contemporary or ancient.
    What a truly strange way of looking at history. By your definition you wouldn’t be interested in visiting Stonehenge, Machu Picchu, The Pyramids Of Giza, or Roman sites all over the world; All of these wonders of the historic world were constructed by civilizations that don’t exist any more. Tell me, would you be happy visiting Alexandria, Egypt? A city founded by Alexander The Great c. 331 BC, it hasn’t been under Hellenic control or influence since 641 AD. What about Byzantium? later to become Constantinople, then Istanbul which of course is in present day Turkey.
    Anyone looking at your previous posts would think you were genuinely interested in Ancient Greece; its history and culture. They might assume you might speak with some authority on the subject. But anyone can see now that an individual who isn’t even prepared to travel to relevant ancient sites because in their blinkered view ‘These places are not Greek anymore’ should be ignored when it comes to any limited version of Macedonian history they present. I knew you weren’t interested in the last two thousand years of Macedonian history, I am however shocked to learn from your last post that you aren’t even interested in all of Ancient Macedonia’s past and culture. Your argument and highly selective use of evidence both referential and geographically has become very weak.

  39. Your whole essay is pointless.
    My subject here was to prove the Greekness of ancient Macedonians. And i did. I do not deny that Bulgaria and Skopje covers part of ancient Macedonian dynasty, i just deny that they are the ancestors of this culture.

    Now please, stop replying to my comments, because im getting annoyed from the disguess email notifications. I am done with what i wanted to do here.
    Thank you in advance.

  40. And thank you for your discourse.

    I don’t think it is pointless to point out the limited approach you take to the Macedonian issue, your refusal to look at Ancient Macedonia, its geography and archeological sites as a whole is staggering.

    In my humble view the jury is still firmly out as to the extent of ‘the Greekness of ancient Macedonians.’ whatever ‘Greekness’ is. I prefer the term Hellenic, as it implies a distinct, antique and past region/people from the multi ethnic state of modern Greece, as does Roman from Italian, Gaul from French, and Goth from German.

    You really should visit The Republic Of Macedonia, you would be fascinated by its extensive history and historic sites covering last few thousand years not to mention the prehistoric sites.

    Anyway many apologies for the reply, and once again thank you for the debate, its been most enlightening. I look forward to seeing your posts on future forums.

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